The Healthy Gut Podcast Episode 20

Dr Jason Klop, Episode 20 - The Healthy Gut podcast

The Healthy Gut Podcast Episode 20

The CLEAR Protocol

Dr. Jason Klop is a naturopathic doctor on a journey to educate, empower and treat those on their journey with digestive challenges. With a childhood diagnosis of mono he turned to naturopathic medicine to help him heal and  never looked back, and then went on to become a naturopath himself. Rebecca and Dr Klop chat about how he created the CLEAR Protocol to help people with SIBO address their symptoms through diet and lifestyle modifications. The protocol has 5 key steps: Consciously eating, Legal foods, Earn, Alert and Restore.

In Today’s Episode

In Episode 20 of The Healthy Gut Podcast, we discuss:

✓ Why we should be consciously eating, taking time to savour and enjoy each mouthful of food

✓ How to re-introduce foods mindfully

✓ How remaining alert and mindful of which foods cause you to react and can help you to shape a way of eating that is sustainable

✓ Ways to help restore your microbiome

✓ Why keeping an open mind about your diet during treatment is key to success

✓ Why conventional medicine often fails us when it comes to treating chronic illness

 ✓ Why building a collaborative healthcare team can best support you to get the best health results

Resources Mentioned In Today’s Podcast

Connect with Dr Jason Klop


Dr. Jason Klop is a Naturopathic Doctor who is considered to be an influencer in Naturopathic Medicine by the ANMC. Dr. Klop is on a journey to educate, empower and treat those on their journey with digestive challenges. His exclusive focus is on those struggling with Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) and/or Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO). Dr. Klop finds that there is a lot of conflicting information available as it relates to SIBO and it is his intention to provide information and resources that clarify and promote the understanding of SIBO and how it can be overcome naturally. Dr. Klop finds immense joy in serving and empowering patients in getting RESULTS while supporting them through the holistic journey to a complete and lasting recovery.

Beat SIBO naturally website

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About The Host

Rebecca Coomes

Rebecca Coomes

Rebecca Coomes is an author, entrepreneur, passionate foodie and intrepid traveller. She transformed her health after a lifetime of chronic illness, and today guides others on their own path to wellness. She is the founder of The Healthy Gut, a platform where people can learn about gut health and how it is important for a healthy mind and body and coaches people on how to live well with SIBO. Rebecca is the author of the world’s first cookbooks for people treating Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO) and the host of the SIBO cooking show and The Healthy Gut podcast.

Read more about Rebecca >>

Podcast Transcript

REBECCA:  Welcome to the show Dr Jason Klop. It’s really great to have you here today.

JASON KLOP:  Thanks so much Rebecca. I am quite enjoying the experience so far and look forward really jumping into some amazing content for you and your wonderful audience.

REBECCA:  Yeah thank you. So you predominantly specialize in people who have IBS irritable bowel syndrome or SIBO. So I would love to hear more about how you came to be a naturopathic specializing in these two very important fields especially for me and my listeners.

[00:30] DR. JASON KLOP:  sure thing yeah. And to really do this justice I am going to have to go back in time just a little bit. I actually grew up in a dairy farm and I am from Canada as a lot of people think I am actually from the states just because I did a have a lot of American patients. But I grew up in a small dairy farm in Chiloak and on the farm I was always attracted to the animals that were sick or needed some extra tender loving care to get by. And as I was growing up I thought I really want to be a veterinarian because anytime the vet came over to our farm, I’d be following home and might be looking over his shoulder. I’d be asking him how I could help him. And so that really was my drive, my focus. At one point thought when I was in my mid-teens, I was actually 15 years old, I got an illness and it was mono.

I have to share it with you guys. You know more of an acute type illness. Although it can have a lot of long term consequences  and so my parents took em to our conventional family doctor and first of all he said, “Oh he’s got strep throat.” So they gave me an antibiotic for strep throat. Took it three days later. So still not feeling better. Actually feeling much much worst and so my parents not willing to just give up with it. they took me back and so they actually did a swab and tested it. Sure enough it was mono and the doctor just said to me, “you’re going to have to go home you’re going to have to rest. In about a year’s time you should start to be feeling like you used to be.

And I was just like, “What here I am a 15 year old into sports, into soccer.” You know school education, I worked a lot on the farm and all these things like to me taking one full year to get back my health seemed unreasonable. Thankfully my parents felt the same way. And so they took me to a naturopathic doctor and with some very straightforward treatments that actually included IV hydrogen peroxide therapy within 3 days I was about 95% of full health and vitality that I once had. Just for some context here, I was actually lying in the back seat of my dad’s truck hardly able to swallow, drink, eat and spitting any extra saliva which is kind of gross into a bucket just because it was so painful to swallow.

In three days my health radically shifted and changed and it was at that moment were I knew I need to be able to help other people do the same. And so fast forward several years, quite a few years at this point. And getting into medicine and really understanding like how do I want to serve others and what always came back to me was that feeling of lost or not having a clear direction or hope that my practitioner my healthcare provider would be able to take care of me because before that it was always just like anytime I am sick I would just go to my doctor and they would just be able to help me.

And that realization that they couldn’t and then I felt no help was such a devastating one and so when I got into medicine myself and decided about how I wanted to focus and really where I wanted to practice and focus my efforts, it was always on – Who can I help that felt like me?” Because it was a horrible sensation. And so that was where i turned to more of the digestive health and SIBO specifically because there is not a lot of awareness from a conventional perspective and there’s a lot of people saying you can never get better, you will never get better. And it’s just a really frustrating place for them to be in. it’s something I can strongly identify with and it’s really with that experience allowed me to provide more support and optimism and encouragement and helping people through that journey.

[4:27] REBECCA:  I think that your experience sadly is one that so many of us myself included have experienced. One thing that I am always left wondering is why does traditional medicine seem to fail so often especially with chronic illness. I would love you to share your viewpoints you have on why our standard care practitioners just don’t seem to always get it right unfortunately.

[04:5] DR. JASON KLOP:  yeah and this is kind of multifaceted for sure. And what I will say to begin with is that they have gotten it right in a lot of instances. Life span has increased, birthing process… the amount of women who have died as a result of vaccinations have made a massive massive difference. But your distinction here was key and that was chronic illnesses and so I think what I wanted just emphasized is that they have a definite role. But that role should be encompassing of other modalities and therapies that are proven to work either with the science or hundreds to thousands of years of effect. Just take Chinese traditional medicine as an example. And so the primary differences though are in the thought process or the thinking or the approach to disease illnesses. And so the conventional system has generally and I am going to say this generally because there are always exceptions. But generally has more of a reactionary approach to health care.

So you have a symptom, what can we use to counteract or reduce or remove that symptom. And that in of itself in many cases works. But in these chronic type disease cases, symptoms are not always just easily equaled out or removed with some form or therapy. It’s often multifaceted, involves different organs, different organ systems, they are correlated, they are connected in different ways. And so if you are missing some of the key components, it’s going to be lacking. And so more reactionary versus the other side of the thinking is how can I prevent this or what are the obstacles that allowed this to present itself within our lives.

And so if we think just generally speaking that we are born healthy and we have a full healthy immune system and these types of things, there should be really no obvious reasons other than some genetic components why we should get sick. Now the environment comes into it emotionally, physically what we are eating. And all of these things will then impact health and so what were the things that created an obstacle that compounded over time to allow this illness to prevent itself or to present itself. And so that is what typically happens. And so how can we go back in time a little bit and not just look at the outcome but look at what allowed this to become a problem to begin with. Remove that obstacle and then support the body through and to care. And so those are some of the key ones.

And another side of it are alternative or integrative or whatever form of medicine you want to call yourself in or put yourself under. I think what really allows the alternative field, the real benefit is that we focus a lot more at least I will speak for myself on support, on follow up, on accountability. That’s really necessary to overcome this. And so with the conventional system, you are typically seen more as a number and you’re pushed into a system that is extremely overburdened in many if not all countries and there’s definitely not enough funding. And so that is a real problem that is more of a systems problem and then there is the other side of it which is the educational and philosophy problem.

[8:25] REBECCA: I’ve got recent experience actually where I went to a traditional general practitioner, GPs as what we call here in Australia. And then my naturopath and it was following my trip to Thailand and despite my best efforts, unfortunately I was caught in the flood and I picked up a suspected parasite. I came home with something which was really devastating to me because I had worked really hard not to get sick and I ended up in a lot of pain, in so much pain that I asked my partner to take me to the doctors. I was worried that I might have been hemorrhaging or something really and is happening  because I was in excruciating agony. And the doctor said, “I don’t really know what is wrong with you. It doesn’t look like anything major is happening. You may have a parasite. You may have something else. Here’s some really heavy hitting antibiotics. Come back in 24 hours if you don’t improve and then we’ll run other tests.”

And I thought, “No, I have just worked so hard at getting my gut in a better state. I am not willing to take anything just yet. Let’s see if there’s another option.” So my naturopath saw me and she said, “Look given that you were in dirty flood water for 10 days it’s likely you have picked up something. We’ve got some herbal product we can try. Let’s see how you feel. Again if you are not feeling better quickly then we need to do further analysis.”

The difference between seeing the GP and my naturopath was that I have never heard from the GP again despite presenting in a lot of pain and look what she said, “Gosh you don’t look well.” My naturopath has sent me a text message everyday, “How are you doing? Are you better today? How’s your bowel movement? How’s the pain?” and I feeling great now and whatever I had has worked and responded well to herbal supplements that we did. But it just really highlights the difference between going to a general practitioner where you really do feel like a number. You’ve got 15 minutes with them and they’ve got to try and guess what’s wrong versus a naturopath who is a lot more invested it seems to me anyway I the overall health and what has gone wrong and really wanted to support you to get back to health.

[10:40] DR. JASON KLOP:  And in a line of chronic disease are these types of symptoms that support components is so necessary especially considering what classifies the disease as chronic. It has been existing for 3 months or longer to years and years and I interact and chat with people and patients who have been having and dealing with this for years and years and years and that begins to wear on you mentally and emotionally. And so if you don’t have that side of the support there, I truly don’t think that you are ultimately going to get the results you are looking for.

[11:12] REBECCA:  You do work with a lot of people with IBS and SIBO, so would you be able to talk to us around the types of people that you see coming through your practice. Are they the people that have experiencing these conditions for many years and they are looking for alternative solutions or you have people that it’s just started and they are coming to you because they found you? Who is coming through your practice?

[11:37] DR. JASON KLOP:  I would say it’s a combination of both. My preference because I love helping people to get the best outcomes and results are those who are just starting out on the journey. But I definitely get people who have gone through the whole gamut. They have done the whole conventional system with all of the testing and imaging and all of the investigative studies and therapies as well as all the pharmaceuticals. Many many of the herbal antibiotics and just general supplements and things of those nature. But generally what I see is definitely a mix.

So some of the first but I am more focused on  trying to educate and get people to jump to this thing sooner. And I recognize a little bit of a challenge here being that the conventional system is definitely generally covered by insurance and things of that nature. And so to make an out of pocket investment on a starting line is a little harder. So just generally speaking, I think alternative care practitioners, naturopathic doctors, they see conditions after they have gone through the full conventional system. But generally my preference is to get them in the earlier stages where they have not tried everything and so that’s my general preference although I definitely see a mix of both. I would probably say about 50 50 and what I do with my patients or prospective patients is that I don’t just accept anybody. And so I actually screen people based on whether or not I truly feel like I can help them in getting results.

And so if I don’t feel that I can truly help them in getting results then I will actually forward them onto someone else or at a different kind of care practitioner and really again thinking about what are some of those obstacles that are preventing healing and if it is indeed something that is related to the bacterial overgrowth I feel like I can handle that. but if it’s something separate and in a lot of cases it is, that they have gone through years and years of treatment therapies trying to eradicate this overgrowth, and it has not worked, something else is going on that is preventing the body from healing and so in those preliminary discussions, I am discussing it as potential as well as looking for missing pieces that may not have been considered as far as what may have made treatment for effective if they had incorporated it. and so generally, that’s the sort of approach. And so if someone has come to me and they have a lot of other concerns, let’s say they got fibromyalgia and Lyme disease or a whole host of other issues, I don’t feel like the focus in all cases but some cases shouldn’t necessarily be on, “Ok how can we just eradicate SIBO considering they may have been trying to do that same approach for several years and so then I don’t feel like what I have to offer necessarily will be ultimately what helps them get better.”

So at the end of the day it comes to me really just caring about people and wanting them to do what is necessary to get better and so it might mean – Look I think what you are doing right now you should adjust it, do this, do that first then reach out to me. And so really trying to identify with them in those preliminary discussions or discussion about what may be their next best step. And then if I am their next best step then it’s great. But if not I would appoint them to what I believe would be their next best step.

[15:04] REBECCA:  I think it’s really an interesting point that you make it around being on the ball. And I have talked about this several times on the podcast episode and previous episodes is around being your own private investigator and really uncovering what is going wrong in your body and not able to allow SIBO to occur but also what other factors or conditions are at play to keep you unwell. And really investigating it and finding a team of people. Sometimes you need a team of people that can work with you collaboratively to help your health return back to a good and ideal optimal level. Sometimes I think sometimes we want it to be just one person that we see. One doctor for instance that we see that has a magic wand that they can wave over our self and fix all. And sometimes they can but especially with chronic long term illness. I think that they peel back the layers of the illness or illnesses to find what is really going on and address it in a multifaceted approach.

[16:06] DR. JASON KLOP:  I hundred percent agree and I think when it comes down to that, there’s a part of it it’s the physician or practitioner recognizing their own limitations and shortcomings as it relates to these other illnesses and so I understand my role but if I am really honest I know that I am not a pro at dealing with and approaching Lyme’s disease. Mostly because I have not pursued further education in that field and don’t have a ton of clinical experience on it. And so I just feel again at the end of the day we are thinking about how can we help people get the best results? Then it should be about who’s best suited for them. And that is a big reason why who I have invested so much of my energy and attention on just the digestive system now. now these other systems that all come into play but if I feel something that some other piece is going to be necessary to really tip them over the edge and get the results they are looking for, I definitely advocate to bring on other team members and just as a part of my own team.

I have my own people that help with my patients as well because definitely I mean I am not the best one that comes to nutrition. So I would rather just hire someone to work with my patients to do that. so I think that’s key and I think honestly what really attracts me to medicine and these types of cases is that investigative or that private eye detective sort of work I really really enjoyed it and I think there’s a part of it that you can gather with science and labs and all these other things. But there’s another part that really means that you are tapping into your intuition. And you’re tapping into and connecting with another person energetically. And when you are doing that you can get a much better understanding of where that person is at.

And just out of interest I would share with you is that sometimes someone will come to me and they tell me they tried everything, they have done everything, they have explored everything. they have gone to all of the best doctors all across North America and potentially beyond. And I will say that what do you think is wrong? What do you think is preventing you from healing? And so many times I would say… 9 out of 10 times I would say, “You know what? Nobody has ever asked me that question before. And so I truly believe that we are much more aware of what is ultimately preventing us from healing and if we are able to just tap into that in a much better way and or work with a practitioner who enables you to tap into that sense that can warrant very very powerful information.

Now again of course the labs and the imaging and all of these things are very beneficial. But that ability is something that is, it’s very very powerful now and moving forward in regards to treating and then preventing long term.

[18:53] REBECCA:  I think that’s really powerful and those that have been dealing with the kind of condition for many years are often quite well educated in their condition because they have all gone and learned a lot and I’ve done that become a little bit obsessed about SIBO. I have done a podcast about gut health so I can keep learning. And I think that having the approval of mission someone in a position to authority like a medical doctor saying, “What do you think is wrong?” is really powerful and like I said I think many people ask that question and I hope that many of the practitioners listening to today’s podcast might like to incorporate that in their practice.

Your treatment of people with IBS and SIBO has led you to develop a protocol called the Clear protocol. Would you talk us through what that actually is and how you apply it?

[19:53] DR. JASON KLOP:  Sure I would love to. And so what ultimately happened for me is that I was finding a lot of people were struggling with how do we deal with foods? When can we eat what? How much? When legal, illegal… You know all of these different questions and I was sort of boggled down by it and I often times joke that I am a very simple guy, I am a simple practitioner and so I like to just keep things simple and break it down into its easiest components and that’s kind of a joke because I spent so much of my life in furthering my education and I continue to today. But the bottom line is that if we try to prevent or present a plan or a treatment guideline that is too complicated or too difficult for somebody to follow then they are very unlikely to be able to follow it. And so I thought, “Well how can I make it today?”

They don’t need to be reading out of a book. Or they don’t need to be complicating the food process. And so what this clear protocol, CLEAR is an acronym. What it ultimately stands for is consciously eating legal foods, earn, art, and restore. And so we are going to go into these into more detail and I believe you also have resource Rebecca for your people to get some more of the background information on this and I am always open to some of the questions that may come. What I want to practice this with is that  I typically advocate  for introducing this clear protocol following eradication. And so again there’s a lot of distinctions and a lot of different opinions on during treatment, following treatment, all of these things. The length of time, which foods and all of these types of things and we can definitely get into a lot more but given the time I typically suggest this following eradication. Although components of this can definitely be powerful when introduced during and following, pre, at any point.

And so if you want me to Rebecca, I’ll just sort of jump in and start explaining these and maybe between each section we can just have a  little bit of back and forth dialogue and you can ask for any clarity? How does that sound?

[22:11] REBECCA:  that sounds great?

JASON KLOP:  Awesome. And so consciously eating. That’s the C. so please if you guys are sitting around and you got a pen and paper in front of you, feel free to write this down otherwise Rebecca is going to provide you resource to get some of this information. So do not fret.

So C consciously eating. What I recognized is that over the years and over the decades and generations there has always been an emphasis on creating enemies within our food repertoire if you will. It was eggs that one point. It was butter at another point. Margarine was the thing to do. And it was just always something and wheat. You know so many different things. Now you may be sitting at home and thinking, “well I do have an allergy or sensitivity to one of those things that I mentioned.” I understand. But that doesn’t mean that everybody should be avoiding those things especially if they are being introduced as synthetics as in margarine or other types of foods.

And so consciously eating really means seeing food and all food as inherently good despite its label or social stigma. And so, if we create this energetic feeling or awareness around a food that it’s bad, then do you think even with sufficient healing and recovery and repair our body is going to be able to differentiate between what is good and bad based on our psychology of what we have predetermined it to be?

And so conscious eating really at the root of it means that you’ve got to enjoy the food that you do have and you’ve got to have gratitude and mindfulness around eating. And so just kind of with our day to day lives. We are always in a rush. We are always running from A to B to C. and then I’ll put myself in that category. But I put a lot of attention on before having a meal, I sit down and I love to be with family as I can be because I think that is another big missed opportunity. Culturally it was so important and it has become less important. But sitting down and if you are a less spiritual or religious type of person having a prayer before meal, otherwise doing some deep belly press before meal, some people would light a candle before meal. Just to signify the stopping and the starting of something that is important and really necessary for you. And so even if your diet is limited at this point, still have appreciation for what you do have because if you begin to cultivate appreciation for what you do have, with time you will be able to expand that.

And so take that time. Eat slowly. Chew plenty and really enjoy the food that you are able to eat. And don’t forget that there’s many who do not have the blessing of having any food. And so really consciously eating and consciously being aware of the process of eating, feeling and tasting, the sensation and the savoring of food… because in itself will really kick your digestive system into gear because let’s be honest, eating even starts or the digestive cycle… our system starts before you even put the food into your mouth. And so once you start smelling your salivary enzymes are being released already and then you place it onto your tongue and your tasting it and lingual lipase is released and it starts digesting the carbohydrate and so digestion starts really really early.

And so it’s really important to put a lot of attention on the part that comes before the stomach. You know sort of we typically think,  “Oh digestion happens in the stomach and a lot of it is absorbed into the small and large intestine.” yeah that’s got truth  to it but if it’s not started correctly to begin with, those follow up sequences are going to be largely impeded. And so focus on consciously eating and how you feel with what you are eating because as you proceed through this you are going to be able to tap into that conscious aspect of it.

[26:21] REBECCA:  it’s a really valid point you are making. One in which I needed to address on my own journey to health and I remember distinctly the day that I addressed conscious eating because prior to that I had been so angry about what food I could not eat when I went on to the SIBO treatment program and followed the SIBO biphasic diet.

And when I caught myself I realized, “Hey Rebecca, get a grip. You do have plenty of food of food to eat. It’s just not bad food. It’s actually really good food.” And I started employing breathing techniques and being grateful of the food that I did have in front of me and be really  mindful of how I ate and switching off any electronic devices and turning the TV off so that i wasn’t distracted when I ate and really consciously thinking about every single mouthful that went into my mouth and how it was nourishing me and helping to heal me and that it was giving my body the nutrients that I need at this very moment to help it return to health.

My symptoms decreased so quickly after I stopped doing that. and I really felt like my recovery sped up because I just changed how I thought about things and my naturopath, it was very interesting, she never  had a patient go through that journey themselves like I discovered it for myself. And she now employs that with her patients and can see that it is a really step to us returning to health even we are left at this point time eating chicken and maybe some jasmine rice and some carrots. If we can eat these three foods we’re so wonderful we can eat three foods. I really like that point you made that there’s plenty of people out there that don’t have food and I think those of us in the western world, we are so bombarded with food advertisements and supersized meals. We have been conditioned by marketers to think we have this abundance of food around us at all times and it’s just marketing. And I think getting a reality check sometimes can be really beneficial to move forward in our health and a big way that if all you got today is three foods then that’s great and tomorrow you have four and the next day you may have five and calming the system down. It’s such an important lesson.

[28:55] DR. JASON KLOP:  I completely agree. I mean just think about it this way, if you are really anxious in anticipating a new food, it’s kind of like going out and giving a public presentation. Your belly kinds of nuts up. You really have to run to the toilet to get rid of some excess there because you are just really nervous. And so if you apply that same feeling or sensation to food and even the reintroduction of food, it can really create symptoms that are not even correlated or related to the food that you are testing. Rather the stress response that comes as anticipation of what you are about to eat. And I am fully aware of the challenge especially when people have been avoiding certain foods for a long period of time, the reintroduction process can be challenging. But what can make it easier is bringing the gratitude and the appreciation and really the love of food back because as I was talking about a little bit earlier our bodies aren’t that good at differentiating what physically you are experiencing and what mentally we are thinking.

So it just kind of like again let’s think about going up and speaking in front of a crowd. I mean it’s all about our thinking. It’s not anything to do with, “Oh I am going to have to step about five steps and step in a platform.” Maybe we would do it with nobody in front of us. And so it’s the same sort of thing. Our bodies are conditioning a response based on what we perceived that experience is going to be like. And so if prejudge a meal like it’s not going to be a good one or we are going to experience horrible symptoms as a result of it, then chances are it’s going to be similar to getting up on stage in front of a full audience. And it’s got nothing to do with the fact that we walked up to five steps and stood on a platform. It’s got everything to do with how we are thinking they are thinking about us. Or at least that is my experience of it.

[30:51] REBECCA:  I hear from a lot of people and it really so sadly because a common thread in messages from people is I am terrified of new food. It’s what they are basically saying to me. So if someone is in a state at this point in time where they are really eager to introduce foods but they are so scared because in the past they have really strong reactions. Perhaps it’s caused pre immediate bloating or caused them to have diarrhea or constipation pain or abdominal pain. What’s a really practical way that they can, let’s say they really want to introduce pumpkin or some squash in their diet. They love it and it is previously causing some problems. How can people identify that they are being a little stressed about it in the first place? They do want to tell people think that they are ok but subconsciously they are actually holding on to a lot of stress, fear, and anxiety around that food.  What’s your advice on how to even address that you might be coming in from a negative perspective?

[31:58] DR. JASON KLOP:  That’s a great one and again I don’t want to minimize that experience because it’s a real one for a lot of people. And the other side of this is that if we continue our diet that restrictively for a long period of time. it is  going to have a serious negative impact on our health. Not on just digestion but all of the other organ systems. And so it is critical to be able to expand the diet. So one is effectively treating the problem which let’s presume in this case I this bacterial overgrowth and there may be other components to it like fungus, like parasites and others. But one is really focusing on getting treatment and then two is understanding the importance of reintroduction because it is really really critical. And what I typically suggest and we can discuss this a little bit us as we go but don’t try generally. If you have concerns about a new food don’t try to eat a whole pumpkin if you will. Take a little bit and eat it and mix it in with a meal  that you already know that you are ok with and do the types of things that we discussed. Consciously eating, the breath work, the gratitude, the appreciation. Find yourself in a comfortable relaxed environment to reintroduce or rechallenge that food. And so start low and slowly work your way up to a point.

Now what I often see too is that it’s like, “Wow I went from carrots and jasmine rice to now introducing pumpkin. Yeah I can have pumpkin.” SO they have pumpkin every single day for a weeks on end and that in itself can create another allergy type sensitivity response. So it’s crucial when reintroducing foods have to be excited about it when your body agrees with it. But don’t overdo them because that can in itself create other problems. And so I don’t know if I am specifically answering your question. I mean a part of it is if you have never rechallenged that food since. And so let’s say a month ago you have tried it and in a month since you have been treating, you have been healing ,you have been repairing the digestive tract and digestive lining. We can then presume that in that time period given that your symptoms are reduced, let’s say you got gas bloating, constipation and or diarrhea. All those are trending and improving well. Then it should mean that it can be time to reintroduce those.

And so I think though that it is really really critical to try and challenge them because what we have to remember here is it’s not that it’s the food that’s the problem. It’s actually the bacteria in this case that are problem, that are eating the food and they are causing the symptoms. And so we’ve got to separate the food from the actual pathology or dysbiosis or overgrowth. And so if we are treating the overgrowth and we are eradicating it then it’s no longer the food but it becomes about the food because we correlate eating food to the symptoms. And the symptoms are caused because of bacteria that are consuming that food and resulting in the bloating and all the other things. And so if we can begin to separate those and understand that if you are treating effectively then the food in them itself should be fine.

Now there’s always going to be exceptions. A lot of people are sensitive to dairy and wheat and egg and corn and soy and these types of things. So there may be some things long term that you’ve got to avoid but generally speaking you can handle with effective treatment much more than you currently are.

[35:47] REBECCA:  I think that it’s an important point you make around the bacteria, not the food necessarily that is causing the problem and we get so fixated on the food. And I am using pumpkin as an example. I love pumpkin but when I was going through my treatment I couldn’t tolerate it. Despite it being considered legal in the semi-restrictive phase of the biphasic diet which is what you move to reasonably quickly. And I introduced not too much but maybe half a quarter of cup of pumpkin and I had quite a strong reaction to it. I was quite upset about it at that time but I spoke to my naturopath and she said, “You might not just quite be ready for it yet. It’s fine but let’s reintroduce it at a later point.” And I kept testing it every couple of weeks to one month. I was testing it and I had a bit of flare. But then finally my body was able to tolerate it again and I beat it. And it wasn’t a problem it and so like you say it’s about where you are in your journey and what you may not be able to eat today doesn’t mean you might not be able to eat ever again.

I just look forward to having pumpkin back in my life again. I was really happy when that came back. And I celebrated it. And now when I eat pumpkin now I just really embrace it. I love this so much. This is so delicious. There was a time that I couldn’t eat it and now there’s a time when it is back in my diet. It’s kind a bit of funny when I look at it so positively. But I had to really be conscious that I did angry at the pumpkin. It was just my body wasn’t quite ready for it. it wasn’t the pumpkins fault.

[37:28] DR. JASON KLOP:  It wasn’t the pumpkin’s fault. I love it. And so let’s get back to the CLEAR here. And so C consciously eating and L legal foods and you just touched on something that was really critical. And so when it comes to legal foods, I typically follow Dr. Siebecker’s SIBO specific diet. She has done such a great job visually of it. And so I like that again. I am the kind of a simple guy. And so I follow that  or suggest my patients  to follow that. And so generally sticking to the left side or the more legal side and including those foods first. And again what’s really interesting and was your experience as well is that sometimes foods that are considered legal may not agree with you. And so that is think the fact that makes it so challenging for people to try and follow all of these different diets whether it’s SCD, AIP, GAPS, SIBO specific diet. I mean there’s just so many options. It becomes really overwhelming.

So when I say find one that works for you and follow that one. So just stick with one. Don’t try to marry everything because that becomes extremely confusing. Then generally speaking, if you are looking to expand your diet, stay on the legal side of things. And then with time work through that and then  begin to incorporate the moderate or illegal columns. And what is really interesting here is that again let’s just presume that pumpkin was actually an illegal food. Given that you responded to it fine previously, it may have been for you that would have been ok. And so sometimes people say, “well I am really wanting that one thing and it happens to be in a moderate or illegal side of things. Should I try it? Can I try it?” and I say, “You know what why not. You may be fine with it,”

And so what we have got to realize is that these diets is just guidelines and the real generalizations. And what it really comes down to is you and your body. We are all really unique unicorns. We are not robots which would make treatment easier but would make life extremely boring. And so we’ve got to recognize that there are unique differences and how you tolerate one food despite its arrangement on said table may still be different for you. And so I really like to suggest starting on the left side, just because that’s most people tolerate the lower FODMAPs better. But then with time reintroducing from the moderate or illegal columns and slowly working your way up.

Now when it comes to amount of time because I lost time to get that question. Well how long do I need to be restrictive in that sense? And generally there is a lot of contention during treatment. How should I do things? My goal generally is let’s just use the diet that limits symptoms. And so I know there are some ideas around there that are in theory very valid that you should be incorporating higher FODMAP foods to introduce or bring out the bacteria. And again theoretically that makes a lot of sense. But most people they may be married, they may have children, many people have jobs, some people are in school.  I mean there are so many variabilities. Do we really want to spend for six, eight weeks feeling extremely horrible because we are trying to bring out the bacteria? To me it seems somewhat short sighted. And so during treatment, minimize the symptoms. Following treatment, stay  more restricted and if you are actually  doing some of the healing and recovering of the digestive system which mind you can happen very quickly because that digestive lining has been replaced constantly.

And so I have heard people say too, “Oh it’s going to take me like 10 years to get over this leaky gut.” No, no, no. your digestive lining is healing provided you move the obstacle or the bacteria and the inflammation is reduced. There is no reason why it shouldn’t within a month or two come back with the necessary supplementation and support. And so definitely it doesn’t need to be a long term diet and I see a lot of that as well. Being on a low FODMAP diet for years and years has a lot of potential for negative consequences and I feel like we could do another whole podcast on that and who knows maybe I will one day. But it is really really critical to recognize and I think we talked about this earlier that it’s not about the food. It’s about the bacteria.

And so if presumingly eradicated or are in a process of eradicating the bacteria, these legal foods should be something that are a short term strategy to reintroduction. And so that will then take us further into the urn. Rebecca do you have any questions at this point or you want me to answer?

[42:23] REBECCA:  What would your advice be to people listening on how to provide the kind of right protocol or diet for them? Because it definitely is one point of major frustration and concern and stress and anxiety for people around looking at all of these different diets and not knowing which one is right for me? How do you get your patients to find the right diet for them?

[42:50] DR. JASON KLOP:  I think in many cases they come to me already with some preferences. And so I don’t try to say, “ok if you are already doing GAPS, you got to come on over and do SCD or AIP or anyone of the other ones.” To me I don’t even encourage any one diet over another to be honest. I mean, generally focusing on more low FODMAP is definitely something that I advocate and having a table like the SIBO specific diet lays that out very clearly. Now what these diets are really great for is that they provide more of the education around how you can reintroduce what length of period and time periods. But really I try to simplify it as much as I can. And often times people are fearful and they begin working with someone who is a naturopathic doctor or in your experience  nutritionist because you are thinking, I know if you go to them they are going to remove more foods. And what I always tell people is we may initially remove more foods, our goal always is to look to bring back more foods.

And so even if in the beginning we say, “Ok I think you should remove that and that.” we are always trying to counteract it with try adding this. Maybe you want to try coconut milk. Maybe you want to try some more fats and oils. And so really trying to find other ways to add versus continually focusing on subtracting. Because again if you get yourself in that mindset and I am always limited and your mind is there or your health is there as well. And so it really is kind of seeing it on the other side of the coin if you will.

So  generally speaking low FODMAP, if someone has a preference and they want to follow GAPS or any of those other ones, I am totally there.  I am totally for it. but again those diets are going to have pieces of them that may not work for you at this time and what I will say is I truly don’t believe any one diet in and of itself is sufficient to treat a real true case of SIBO. I just don’t. And what often happens is those diets through time would shrink shrink shrink. And then you get to the point where you are only on three foods. And so I don’t put a lot of emphasis as maybe you can tell on choosing one over the other. If someone will benefit from choosing one then I will suggest maybe look into this one or this one has an app. Maybe you want to try that. So it only comes down to the person.

And I think that is really what health care is about is trying to find what would work best for them. And what I always say is if the plant that we create is not one that you can follow it could be the best plan but it’s going to be the worst one because you are not going to get any results because you are not going to implement what I say.  And so people come to me and say, “Oh my doctor told me to read this book and that book and that book. And here they are they don’t even have the energy to get through their day. And so it’s like how can we make it really simple so that we know exactly what to do and how to do it. and so generally low FODMAP if you like another one, choose it but choose it and just go with it and don’t be worried about what everyone else is doing.

[46:08] REBECCA:  and I think allowing yourself the permission to look elsewhere as well that if let’s say you are following a low FODMAP diet and it’s not working for you, we have the permission to go on and find something else that works for you. You don’t have to follow it because it has worked for somebody else that you may know.

I have a great example. For me the SIBO biphasic diet by Dr. NIrala Jacobi worked really well for me. I will say there were some foods that she didn’t have on the list and I didn’t know I was allowed to eat or not and I ate them I ate raw cacao powder from pretty much day one. I made myself my own chocolate with coconut oil and natural 100% natural Stevia for those times I just needed I could feel a little bit of a treat. And then when Dr. Nirala Jacobi and I made contact with each other and I ask her can I actually use this, she said, “OF course that should be when you are in the kind of maintenance phase. I had been able to tolerate it from day 1. So technically later in the treatment program, food was absolutely fine with me and it was that I knew that because I had just eaten it.

I was just adding it without even knowing that i wasn’t supposed to. The biphasic diet as I said worked really well for me and then a friend of mine having watched my journey said, “I wonder if I have got SIBO.” And so I gave her the details of my naturopath. She went and got tested. Sure enough she had SIBO. The biphasic diet didn’t work so well with her. And she has moved on to the fast track diet and she is really enjoying it and feeling like it is much more suitable to her and that she feels that she is actually making progress. So again, you know giving yourself the permission to find, to keep experimenting, to keep looking for something that works for you and using these diets as a guide that can help support you find  a range of foods that work. I do wonder about the use of some of these terms – banned foods, illegal foods. I do wonder what impact that has on our psychology as humans being told these foods in effect negative with the use of the words that some of these lists or these protocols use. I am sure that it’s having a subconscious negative impact on the way we perceive foods and something that we have just been talking a lot about around in that first step of your protocol, the conscious step around being more positive and loving towards our food rather than being so negative. Do you see anything with your patients around fear around these illegal or banned foods as they are prescribed on these protocols?

[49:00] DR. JASON KLOP:  Yes, without a doubt. I mean the wording is setting up our bodies. Again it’s kind of like, your presuming you are going to be going on stage to give a presentation when you are reintroducing a new food because it is on a list that someone created and based on that food’s components is considered to be legal or illegal. And so definitely and I mean I can’t talk enough about the importance of getting your mindset on track. And this doesn’t just come to health. It comes to every single part of your life. And it starts with your language and your language dictates the way you are speaking and the way you are speaking dictates the way you are acting. And so that’s what really frustrates me when a healthcare provider will say, “You will never get better.” Or, “This disease is only a chronic one. This may reduce the symptoms.”

And to me it is so short sighted because that is prejudging someone based on some statistics that may exist somewhere. Or their own experience. And so I just think that there is so much to be said about the mindset and wording is really really critical. And so if I could I would just say, “Not right now.” versus “Not forever.” And so when it comes to the ern side of things, so we talked about the CL and now we are on to the E. when it comes to earning, you are going to now because you’re consciously eating. You are aware with what is going on with your body and you are able to interpret that response. You can try to move and let’s just say from left to right.  And just to clarify, left being the more legal and right being the more illegal. And I know we covered this a little bit. So let’s just say left to right versus using those foods.

Now what I typically suggest is that and again we have talked a little bit about this but choose a food that you… one that you know can be used in different dishes. So I think when you are already limited choose a food that you are already you know when adding it will allow you to have more variety just based on “oh now you will be able to bake with it or cook with it or put it into some other sort of form.” And so choose it but choose it more in its purest form. And so you can’t really go out there and buy something that has pumpkin but it also has a bunch of other ingredients and if you do that you are never really going to know which is the one that you didn’t react to if you did happen to have a bad reaction to it.

And so choose it in its purest form. I typically suggest you’ve got to take it once. If you feel fine with it take it again that same day. You can do that 2 to 3 times that day and then give your body several days to see if that response is going to be generated. Now I guess again the caveat here is that if you are having a tons of symptoms as it exists right now, reintroducing is not going to give you a clear outline as to what works or what doesn’t because if you are already horribly reacting to everything then try to reintroduce something else will give you no valuable information. And this is why the reintroduction is typically introduced further along.

Having said that if you currently are experiencing symptoms you really introducing new food and it doesn’t make you feel any different than you might than you just have eaten something that you are already ok with. Then chances are you will be fine with it.

The other side of this is that you got to distinguish between what is your body’s general response to this new food because you have not eaten it in some time. And what happens is if you have been avoiding certain foods or certain food categories for an extended period of time, certain digestive enzymes may not be produced. And when that is the case it is going to take a little bit for your body to build to that response. And so that is definitely a part of this earn step or process that requires you to push through some symptoms. Now if you experience horrible indigestion, gas, bloating, nausea, headaches. If it was a real over response, you know you did too much. It’s too soon. You need to wait a little bit and then potentially reintroduce it again. But if you experience a little bit of symptoms, you may just need to work through it. And in the process of working through it your body will begin to tolerate it much better and you realize that actually that it is fine with you.

But you should notice a clear response and if you aren’t then it’s just a little bit of symptoms, give it some time. Give it a chance. Give it a second chance and that will allow you because just think about it for example. Let’s say you are drinking a lot of alcohol and you drink all the time. You might notice that with time you can handle more and more alcohol because your body is producing enzymes necessary to break up the alcohol. Now if you stop drinking for some time and you went on a 3 month… I am going to go on a cleanse, stop drinking, stop doing all these fun things, and you start to drink again. Before you may have been able to have a bottle of wine now one glass might have you feeling tipsy. And that is because those same enzymes have been down regulated and the same goes for diary and the same goes for any other food categories because our bodies are designed to produce the enzymes necessary to digest the foods we are consuming.

And so if we stop consuming them our body is not going to unnecessarily produce something we don’t need.

[54:45] REBECCA:  That’s really interesting point and I think that it’s really important for people that are very restricted to be aware of that and it’s funny you talked about the alcohol. I used to drink quite often. I live in London  for 7 years and all socializing there is done in the pub over a glass of wine or a pint of beer or something like that. So my tolerance was incredibly high. But these days I don’t drink all that often. And I can get a cracking headache after one glass of wine and where in the past I could drink a whole bottle and sometimes I don’t even feel that it was really affecting me. So I can understand that logic then for let’s say you haven’t been eating broccoli for years and then you start to try and reintroduce it. Broccoli in it of itself is a problem. It’s just like your body is like, “Woah what is this. We haven’t seen broccoli in years. What do we do with it?”

[55:4] DR. JASON KLOP:  Yes I 100% agree with you there Rebecca is one of those things were our bodies think it’s something that is new or foreign or different but really our bodies need to just build up a response, a sufficient response and a part of that response is producing the necessary enzymes and digestive components that will help to break that down. And the same applies to a heavy protein meal or a dairy meal or otherwise. And so it’s just a matter generally of time. So there is a part of it that is pushing through for sure. And so when it comes to this EARN as I feel we talked about a little bit is they are kind meshed together. But as I said you are starting more in the left side. You are moving more to the right presuming you are continuing to heal, recovery, repair. You are going to slowly begin to reintroduce foods not only in the left or let’s call it legal again but moving slowly to the right and to the more illegal and with time what was considered illegal now becomes legal.

And so this kind naturally carries us into the next part of this in that when you really begin to reintroduce there are so many foods that you could choose. And ok, “Did I try that one. How did I feel?”  and so I really suggest you actually write it down and create a bit of a schedule for it so that  you are actually clear on what am I doing and how did I respond to it so that two weeks later I am thinking, “How did I do with pumpkin again? Was it ok? Wasn’t it ok?”

And so actually just write it down. And what I call and maybe this is a better word for it, but if you didn’t…your body responded and reacted to that food that you reintroduced or try to reintroduce I would suggest you put it on in an alert list. And so it’s just to be alerted that right now it’s not right for me. But that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be forever not be right for me. And so take the time to reintroduce if something comes up, put it onto your alert  list, give it a few days for your system to get back on track again and then reintroduce. And so if you are presuming it takes two to three days to introduce a new food, in any given week you can reintroduce two to three foods presuming you are healing and recovering the way you should.

And so just think about it, it’s not going to take you there along before you are eating a lot of food. Now if you think about it, the general population is kind of just eating a combination of 10 to 15 foods as it is. Now I see that has been a problem but this really can if you do it properly begin to expand your diet very quickly. And so again we don’t want to rush, we don’t want to push.  My motto with all things treatment and recovery is “Start low and go slow.” But it shouldn’t take you very long to reintroduce foods.

Now as I eluded a little bit earlier, there is one caveat and that caveat is that there may be some foods and most people know what those are before SIBO ever even became a problem. For some people they just do not handle dairy well or soy or eggs or something of that nature. And so those foods may take more time to come back from and there are ways to de-condition if you will. Your body’s immune reaction and immune response to those foods if indeed they are not true allergies. But that’s another sort of discussion for another day. And what I generally say is that in long term most patients generally most people do well or do better on a low carb diet. And so let’s just reiterate and close it off with the clear protocol with the restore. And so again, C consciously eating. That’s really having an appreciation gratitude and welcoming the food that you are consuming. The L is legal foods. So sticking to the left side of the column and when you are reintroducing and earning you are bringing them back more on the left and slowly working your way to the middle and right as you go. And you can reintroduce foods every two to three days just depending on how you respond.

And the importance of waiting a few days is because the immune reaction or the immune response can take two to three days. And so that’s why it’s critical not to try a food  in a day because you may do well with a food in a day and on day three you could be reacting to one of the foods you had on day one, two , or three. So you got to give the body a little bit of time to… if it’s going generate a response then if it’s not, that’s great.

So you got to create and earn less. Some foods may not work with your gut this time. So you put them on your alert list and you move them for now. And you have a date. Again you can try that same food in a month, 2 months or whatever. Just kind of when you feel like it would be best for you again and again. If you are being conscious, if you are being aware, if you really are being in tune with your body, you are going to have a much better sense for when that food is ok to reintroduce versus what some buck or some whatever tells you to do. and so it really does come down and back to getting in tune with your body.

And so lastly restoring. A part of restoring means bringing back and rebuilding the microbiome. And what is a critical component to this is having variety in your diet.  And that’s why reintroduction is so  so critical and why treatment to get into the stage of reintroduction is so so critical because there is blooming and blossoming research on the microbiome. And it is critical to have diversity in that microbiome not only in species but in numbers. You need to have a varied diet because certain bacteria will feed off of certain food types and categories. And so if you are very restricted to your diet your microbiome is also going to be restricted.  

And based on some of the research that has been done, our microbiome is built up and kind of has its own fingerprint as I like to say and that fingerprint became built through the years. The first several years of life. Now you were born and you got a whole bunch of bacteria. You are breast fed. If you weren’t you got a whole bunch of bacteria. Your environment was such, maybe you are running around in duck ponds like I was. And so your bacteria is different. But it’s really developed in those first years. And what happens is that our bodies want to get back to that same microbiome or fingerprint. And they will if we give them the support that they need.

And so a part of this is removing the bacteria that are causing this imbalance because that will allow the let’s just say the good bacteria to thrive again. I don’t like those distinctions that great. And so those bacteria will be able to come back and then feeding them ore foods or bring them back even more. And then again you can decide to do things like probiotics typically I’m suggesting to avoid prebiotics at least initially. But with time it can become safe to do that. And then I think it’s been lost art is using and introducing fermented foods.

I think it is so so critical and important. But again I can’t stress enough starting low and going slow. I think it is easy to just say, “I am going to buy a bottle of kombucha or a whole can of sauerkraut and I am just going to inhale it.” that can be too much too soon. So always always when it comes to reintroducing fermented type foods, start slowly and be in to build that up. And so your system gets used to it. But generally I don’t suggest jumping to fermented foods right away. I know some people do and again when it comes to probiotics and fermented foods some people will start at earlier on the process and feel amazing. Some people will start it earlier and feel horrible. I find generally that more people feel worst than do feel better. So I make general suggestions but my suggestion typically is “let’s wait til you have gotten the bacteria. Because remember it’s not about the bacteria. It’s not about the foods it’s about the bacteria.”

So get rid of the bacteria then bring back the microbiome and do your best to try to avoid therapies like hard core antibiotics that will again wipe that out again and diets that don’t facilitate that normal growth. And so there is a big part of this and again we could talk about this maybe in some other time about what to do after the fact because getting rid of this digestive problem is generally for a lot of people the start of the journey. And it might seem like, “Oh wow I feel like that would get me to the end of my journey. But there’s this whole other side of “how do we prevent it from coming back again. And how do we really build up system that is vital and that can handle any types of…”

You know if this sort will come back again in some other forms like you said you were traveling through Thailand and it happens to be flooding and you know ordinarily our body should be able to handle this and if it does present itself we should be able to kick it out and move on. And so there’s just another whole side to living vitally. And that is something that is really really crucial. And so that is the long and short of the CLEAR protocol. If you got any questions for me just let me know Rebecca and I will be happy to get into any more specifics on this or others.

[1:05:33] REBECCA:  I think the clear protocol is very easy to follow like you said at the beginning that you wanted something that was really easy and simple that people could follow. And the restore piece is one of interest for me. And I will share with the listeners my approach because it worked me. Again what worked for me doesn’t necessarily mean it will work for everybody. But my naturopath and I decided not to include any fermented foods until we knew through my second breath test that my SIBO had gone, that we’ve got the number so bacteria back down into a healthy range. And then I slowly started introducing literally one teaspoon every few days of sauerkraut but only one type of fermented food at a time. So I do sauerkraut for a couple of weeks perhaps slowly slowly building it up.

And then I made my own homemade coconut yoghurt. And again a teaspoon at a time and slowly building that up. And then I would look at kombucha and other  fermented foods. But being very gentle with my system and very interestingly it’s only now and I am well and truly past that the SIBO that we are now using probiotics and I feel great on them. But we have been very like you say go slow and low. And we are slowly methodically working our way through rebuilding the health of my gut. And I am pretty certain that if I still had SIBO and I still had a much unhealthier poor digestive system I would have ended up violently ill from being in flood waters which had sewage and sorts of stuff in it.

Then what I got which was a few days of pain and abdominal discomfort, I actually am really excited that my body seems to have handled it pretty well. All things considered because I know what I would have been in the past.

So something that you said to me prior to our podcast interview today was that illness can often be a catalyst for change. And I think it would be a great point  for us to finish on because I know that my chronic illness that I had for 36 years has been the biggest catalyst for change in all aspects of my life. And I am actually probably sounds a bit weird but I am really grateful for it now because now I am really excited about the next 36 years and beyond of my life because so much has changed because I got that SIBO diagnosis. What do you see with your patients in your own life about illness being a catalyst for change?

[1:08:19] DR. JASON KLOP:  Just sitting here and hearing you reiterate what I shared with you at another point of time is just to me it brings comfort and it takes away from the randomness that can be overwhelming in life. And the way that I think about is that we are all really put here to do something important and that doesn’t mean you’ve got to be acclaimed and recognized by everybody. That could mean you’re just a stay at home mom, you’re a stay at home dad. You are like my generation of family which we are dairy farmers.

There could be many reasons for that. And what can happen is that along the way we may get distracted from what you are really here to do and at times illness presents in your life to refocus you and to bring on to the track that you need to be on. And what can happen is that if you don’t listen in to the signs and symptoms are truly just your body trying to tell you that something is going on and that you need to pay attention to it. it’s there for a real reason. Pain is… it’s a gift really because if it weren’t there we wouldn’t know that anything is going on and suddenly we would just die. It’s kind of like if you are having trouble breathing because your heart isn’t pumping effectively, well that’s a really good thing to know because now we can correct it whether it be with some sort of therapies, diets, surgeries, operations, what have you.

And so symptoms are really truly a good thing. It’s just that when the immune system becomes really overwhelmed it just gets really slidy and really scattered and attacks everything that comes its way. That can create real issues. But a part of healing is recognizing how this served you because if you truly harbor a lot of regret and remorse and anger and resentment about being where you are at right now, again it comes back to the mindset. And you’re not going to be able to move yourself out of the state of toxicity, out of victimhood. And when you are in this state of “I am not get better, I won’t get better. I have been dealing with this for so long. Why me? Why now?” you could just mope and find yourself in there. And again I recognize that. I feel your pain. I understand. But what he have to acknowledge is that 1) if we truly want to get better we got to take personal responsibility for our health.

At the end of the day, we got us where we currently are and so with that same line of thinking we can get ourselves to where we want to be. And if we find ourselves in a state of “Poor me. I am not going to get better and I won’t get better and why doesn’t something just happen and the government and health care and….” I mean you go on and on. Are you really going to be thinking about what are the little things that I could begin to do today so that tomorrow is going to be better than today? And that the next day is going to be better? And when we create a clear vision of what we want for our health and our life in all components, out body and our mind begins to go to work to make that a reality.

Our immune system, everything about is… it’s so combined ,the psychology and the physical component of the spirituality and the physical… it is so combined and so if we tarnish it and really break it down and make it one that has no light that has no cheer that has no hope. You are not going to make the decisions today that could change tomorrow and really adjust the trajectory of your life. And so if you see your health as something that is presenting to you so that you are here to learn something from it and you take the information it’s giving you and then do something with it and that may mean you’ve got to change your career. That may mean the relationship you are in is toxic. That may mean a lot of things and for a lot of people it is fairly simple. It could be that their diet was no good, that there lifestyle was no good, that they were out late and partying all the time. I mean they were using drugs. I mean you name it. There’s just so many things that can contribute to illness.

And there’s other things that you don’t have as much control over but that we can manage around. There are environmental toxicities and there’s just a whole host of other things. But it comes down to that mindset and truly our bodies cannot differentiate between what we perceive to be real and what we believe to be real. And so I always always suggest creating a clear vision of what health is going to look like for you because if you continue to stay and live in the moment of it it’s kind of like the world is closing in on you and you are in a box and that box is getting smaller and smaller and darker and darker. And then you feel like you are the only one there and you find yourself anxious and depressed. And again I understand that and I recognize that.

But what we got to do is break out of that box and start thinking and feeling and believing and giving appreciation for where we are going to be. And when we get ourselves in that mindset, it would be amazing, the people, the practitioners, the things that you are going to attract into your life that are going to support you in that journey. So take where you are at and use it as something that  you are going to learn form that you are going to use it as a teacher and integrate it into your life and give gratitude for where you are going to be even if you are not currently there. And so if you don’t learn the lesson now, it may have to come back to teach us in some other form.

So take what you can from it. Again it comes back to this conscious side of things and be more aware and be more mindful and be more grateful and all of these things because that is really in that silence. Silence can be louder than death metal music if you will. And so really I would just really really encourage people to create a vision of where they want to be and all of these smaller components and the smaller pieces of this, what diet? What book? All of these things will come to past. They will come true. They will become clear to you. It’s a matter of snapping yourself out of the state of mind and moving yourself into one that is truly supportive healing and restored of in that sense.

[1:15:11] REBECCA:  Definitely. It’s very much the journey that I had to go on. I quit my corporate job. I had to really address the relationship that I was in and we had quite a long break from each other actually. I had to go and do some work on myself. I found an incredible psychologist who helped me with my  mindset piece because I realized that my mindset had been really affecting me. I had been sick all my life so I only saw myself as a sick person. So how do you see yourself as a healthy person when all you have ever known is chronic illness? So I really had to change that. And the other thing that I had to do was I had to do a lot of things. I had to step away from some friendships because they weren’t supporting me. I had to address my lifestyle because my sleep was haphazard. I was going to bed far too late. I wasn’t exercising regularly. I went and found a personal trainer who I still work with until this day so that I had accountability, so that I was moving my body.

The other thing in Australia is we do have health care here. But we don’t get free health care most of the time especially not our alternative health practitioners like naturopaths. To go through SIBO treatments was incredibly expensive and being self-employed by that point, I didn’t have a regular income. And I had to consciously choose where to spend my money because there wasn’t a lot of it. It wasn’t like I had money just pouring in. and so I chose to spend my spare money on my health by eliminating the alcohol. I didn’t drink for some months and by choosing really healthy food, I was able to put the money that I would rather spend on going out in drinking and getting drunk and dealing with all of that stuff which was fun but not supporting our lifestyle of health. And I put it towards my naturopath and the other services like a psychologist and a personal trainer. I am really glad I made that investment in myself because today where I am today which is still my journey to health, I am not at the end point is such a better place than where i was 2 years ago.

And it’s almost to the day actually in two days’ time I commenced my SIBO treatment two years ago. So it’s been a pretty incredible journey but it has been one where I’ve had to make a lot of conscious decisions to move towards a vision that I want or a lifestyle or a life of health that I want for myself in the future. And that can take some challenging decisions, challenging conversation with people but at the end of the day we only have one go at this. We only have one body. At this point we haven’t figured out how to do a full body transplant yet. So I am going to make the most of it and if that means having some tough decisions and tough conversations with people about what is right for me, not what is right for them, then I am going to do it. I have never realized how strong I was as a person until I started going through this journey and I am really proud of what I have been able to achieve and I know that there are so many people listening to this podcast who are strong and they should be proud of everything they do for themselves because they are working towards obtaining their health which is just fantastic.

[1:18:41] DR. JASON KLOP:  That’s so beautiful. If you didn’t have that clear vision for yourself as in what you wanted you very likely wouldn’t have introduced and implemented those different components and wouldn’t continue to strive for it. And so someone who focuses their whole lives on being extremely wealthy will do whatever it takes right? Hire coaches, do trainings, do all of these different things potentially at the expense of their health. But I mean you’ve got to decide and you’ve got to recognize that I’m going to compromise in some other ways so that I can get to this goal that I am creating. And if you don’t truly create a goal, you got nothing to work towards. If you don’t create a vision you got nothing to see yourself as. And you are going to make very different decisions than you made otherwise.

[1:19:30]] REBECCA:  definitely. Dr. Jason Klop it has been wonderful having you on the Healthy Gut Podcast today. If people would like to connect with you, how can they find you?

JASON KLOP:  Yes, it’s just definitely an awesome, amazing time. I really enjoy doing this with you Rebecca. I think I have always listened to your amazing accent hear in Canada and I love it. I think you’ve got such depth of understanding. Thanks so much for inviting me to come on. The best way to get in touch with me is maybe two ways. One is I got a Facebook group and that’s really lively and I really enjoy that. It’s called treat and beat IBS/SIBO naturally. And I have also recently done a free training that I got a lot and lot of positive feedback from and you can find that at And that’s again a great amazing freebie source. And also I also welcome the Facebook messages or just email I would be glad to hear your feedback. If you got any more specific questions again it’s my understanding that Rebecca is going to be sending you some more of these condensed notes and so again I am really really grateful for you giving me this opportunity and this platform to share what I believe to be a vital message. And I think I would like to end it on Hope. Keep believing that you have the capacity and the capability to get and stay healthy because if you continue to hold on that, there’s really nothing that can keep you and prevent you from it.

And I forget who had to quote or had to say and if I had dealt this urge earlier I would have said it but there’s physical suffering but physical suffering doesn’t mean that you need to emotionally or physically or spiritually continue to suffer. There is really a difference. And it’s that recognition that you do not need to be a victim of your circumstances but that you can really be a victor. And so keep that hope, keep that light and keep that joy and when you focus on it it will expand and it will grow in your life.

REBECCA:  wonderful words to end this podcast. Thanks for coming in the show Dr. Jason Klop.

JASON KLOP:  Thank you so much.


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